Curse

Grammar · Dec 20, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

"This skill considers the 50% mark before divine favor."

^^^ Quotation from Wiki about Zealous Benediction's energy bonus.
But I still see 8 people out of 10 around here say otherwise.
Can anyone clear this up for me?

Also, I'm terribly torn between PS, SoA, and SB for my PvE ZB build (and I can only take one).
I'm curious to see people chime in on this. Which do you generally prefer for PvE and why?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Nicolas Elensar · Dec 20, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Divine Favor bonus is applied before ZB. That's why people tend to run low points on Divine Favor when using ZB.

As for PS/SoA/SB it's all about where you're monking and personal preference i guess. For instance, if you're monking in starting areas where you don't really get hit for more than 50-60 damage then SoA is for you but if you're in areas where monsters can and will star burst your ass for 100+ PS/SB is kinda mandatory.

I personally use Prot. Spirit instead of Spirit Bond cause it lasts longer but like I said.. It's personal preference really

.

Ensign · Dec 20, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

^^^ Quotation from Wiki about Zealous Benediction's energy bonus.
But I still see 8 people out of 10 around here say otherwise.
Can anyone clear this up for me?

8 out of 10 around here are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Also, I'm terribly torn between PS, SoA, and SB for my PvE ZB build (and I can only take one).

If you can only take 1, it's Protective Spirit. If you couldn't take any, you'd cut a spell for Protective Spirit. That skill is absolutely essential in many boss fights and is a great long-lasting Prot in many other situations as well.

The second one is Shield of Absorption, and it's good enough that there's probably something on your bar you can cut for it. Monsters do focus fire at times in PvE, and when they do Shield makes that person simply stop taking damage.

Spirit Bond is an anti-spike skill that's huge in PvP, but less essential in PvE where players really don't get spiked down by a bunch of different, coordinated monsters. It's almost always a boss with huge (Prot Spirit) hits, or a horde that Shield of Absorption shines against.

Peace,
-CxE

Burst Cancel · Dec 20, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

640 health max
320 after infuse
317 after vamp
317+32 = 349 (54.5%) after DF heal, ZB still triggers +10e

The case for Spirit Bond becomes stonger the further in the game you progress. Late-game areas, for instance, tend to be full of monsters that will hit for 60~100 every hit, which makes Spirit Bond rather attractive.

Carth` · Dec 21, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

In my experience you don't get the +10 energy unless your target is still below 50% after DF.

Prot Spirit is nice for the duration, but Spirit Bond is nice because it actually heals the person. Spirit Bond is a great spell for stopping spikes in PvP, but Prot Spirit is very useful as well. Which one you use is personal preference, and situational. In PvE I will tend to take Prot Spirit because it is longer lasting, and you get bosses that can do 400 damage in a single hit, in that case a heal for 80 won't help.

SoA I don't class with PS and SB, although they are often used with the same goal in mind. SoA is nice against pressure and focused fire. Very powerful in PvE and in PvP when used right, but it won't be as useful against something that does slow, high damage attacks like many spellcasters in PvE. In that case a PS will limit the damage to about 50, but SoA could be slow to reach that level of damage reduction (for example Searing Flames will do 119, then 114, 109, 105, eventually SoA will end and you were still taking nearly 100 damage every time). I find the same is sometimes true of hammers/scythes. They do a high amount of damage and are slower to have the damage reduced, but a Prot Spirit keeps it reduced to about 50 for a long period of time.

Akane · Dec 21, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

ZB is my favorite PvE elite. But I don't typically use any of PS, SoA or SBond.

I utilize mostly heroes and henchies running a Life Bond build to protect the tank and squishies.

[skill]Mantra of Inscriptions[/skill] [skill]Blessed Signet[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] [skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Smite Hex[/skill] [skill]Life Bond[/skill] [skill]Balthazar's Spirit[/skill] and Lightbringer's Gaze.

The foes all seem to have the same target preferences, so I usually bond up my ele, necro, warrior, and fellow monk. The rest rarely need it.

I use Aegis to cover anytime we engage a group - otherwise the bonds are vulnerable to stripping.

No rez? I leave rez duty to the henchies.

Burst Cancel · Dec 21, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

In my experience you don't get the +10 energy unless your target is still below 50% after DF.

Then explain the screenshot.

Prot Spirit vs. Spirit Bond is not a matter of personal preference. It is a matter of what kind of damage your target is taking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

But I don't typically use any of PS, SoA or SBond.

This is a mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

I utilize mostly heroes and henchies running a Life Bond build to protect the tank and squishies.

What are you going to do against non-attack damage? Invoke Lightning isn't going to care about your Life Bond.

Carth` · Dec 21, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Then explain the screenshot.

I can't explain it. I've been using this skill for a long time and if a target is at about 45% health, I don't get the energy back. I suppose it could be that I'm just bad at predicting where 50% is. I just tried it with Infuse Health and a vampiric weapon, I used Infuse and then lost 2 health from vampiric, healed myself with ZB and it gave me 10 energy. I'm sure it didn't do this before.

WoH used to measure 50% after DF, that I'm sure of. I am guessing it doesn't any more since ZB doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Prot Spirit vs. Spirit Bond is not a matter of personal preference. It is a matter of what kind of damage your target is taking.

Yes. If you have both on your bar you can use the right one in the right situation. But if you can only bring one or the other, I try to predict which one I will need more, but sometimes it ends up just being which one I prefer to have at the time. I can choose if I want to. In fact every skill choice can be called personal preference, and anyone saying "no, monks always use these skills" can go to hell. I will make my own build.

Blame the Monks · Dec 21, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

"This skill considers the 50% mark before divine favor."

^^^ Quotation from Wiki about Zealous Benediction's energy bonus.
But I still see 8 people out of 10 around here say otherwise.
Can anyone clear this up for me?

The conditional energy gain is calculated BEFORE DIVINE FAVOR. Many people are confused by this because they don't realize you won't get the energy back when you are exactly at 50% (such as after an infuse). That and just the general tendency to spout off on forums without testing.

See this post for a demonstration with pictures of how to get the +10 back from ZB consistently:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=79

Akane · Dec 21, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This is a mistake. What are you going to do against non-attack damage? Invoke Lightning isn't going to care about your Life Bond.

The build I showed is effective in most of Nightfall, including LB farming the Margolites in DoS. It's a lazy-man's build that relies on having a healer (Mhenlo will do), and where I really don't have to do all that much. However, admittedly, the build is TOTALLY crap in DoA.

The bottom line is that, IMHO, ZB is an exceptional elite skill for PvE monking. It's offers a "rescue healing button" that can turn the tide in a battle, especially when the healer is going down. And it does so while maintaining the advantages of a full prot allocation instead of resorting to a jack-of-all trades build.

Burst Cancel · Dec 21, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

In fact every skill choice can be called personal preference, and anyone saying "no, monks always use these skills" can go to hell. I will make my own build.

Nobody is stopping you from making your own build, and so long as you don't play with me, I certainly don't give a good goddamn what you bring. But the fact of the matter is that Prot Spirit works better in certain kinds of situations, and Spirit Bond works better in others. Effectiveness isn't a matter of which one you feel like bringing at the time, it's a matter of hard facts and numbers.

Your own bar is up to you. Sure, you can bring orison, breeze, mending, and echo if you prefer. How effective are you going to be?

Ensign · Dec 21, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I can't explain it.

I can - you're terrible at observing when a target is below 50% health. In addition, you have sufficient ego that you will blame *the game* for your inability to observe how full a red bar is, and are sufficiently disconnected from reality that you will continue to do so in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth`

I can choose if I want to. In fact every skill choice can be called personal preference

In the real world, only things that do not matter are left to personal preference. What color do you dye your armor? Personal preference, it doesn't matter. Which armor inscription should you buy? Ah, now that's a complicated question with a bunch of factors including the types of builds you will be running, the opponents you expect to face, not to mention the power levels of the different mods to begin with. The decisions going into that are not arbitrary at all, there are clearly better and worse solutions.

Skill choice is exactly the same way. Every skill you put on your bar is at the exclusion of something else, and gives you abilities that you otherwise wouldn't have. For a given character, team, mission, and other paramters, there is a subset of best skills and best characters. Those characters are simply more effective at completing whatever objectives the player or team has.

The term for someone who makes arbitrary decisions on problems with meaningful, distinct results is a moron. I'm not going to say that morons don't have a right to be morons, I won't try to convert you, but please shut the hell up and stop cluttering up this person's legitimate question with counterproductive drivel.

Peace,
-CxE

Tegato · Dec 22, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Sorry about double post. Ignore this one, and read the next.

Tegato · Dec 22, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I came upon this thread, and it was an interesting theory. So I tested it. Same result as Burst Cancel got.

My vamp is weapon set 2, so don't get confused. ;P

600hp/2 = 300hp.
vamp down to 275. Divine Favor heals for 35.
275 + 35 = 310 = 52%, still got the +10 energy

So Zb triggers before DF is activated. I was curious enough to try it out. Why don't you do the same instead of just arguing..?

Age · Dec 22, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

640 health max
320 after infuse
317 after vamp
317+32 = 349 (54.5%) after DF heal, ZB still triggers +10e

The case for Spirit Bond becomes stonger the further in the game you progress. Late-game areas, for instance, tend to be full of monsters that will hit for 60~100 every hit, which makes Spirit Bond rather attractive.

How did you get you hps down on the Nameless Island and I saw the exact same build on GWonline meant for PvP use and nice btw?I am to playing and experimenting with ZB have gotten it quite down yet.I am useing in place of Life Sheath.

twicky_kid · Dec 22, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

How did you get you hps down on the Nameless Island and I saw the exact same build on GWonline meant for PvP use and nice btw?I am to playing and experimenting with ZB have gotten it quite down yet.I am useing in place of Life Sheath.

Use a vamp weapon.

twicky_kid · Dec 22, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

How did you get you hps down on the Nameless Island and I saw the exact same build on GWonline meant for PvP use and nice btw?I am to playing and experimenting with ZB have gotten it quite down yet.I am useing in place of Life Sheath.

Use a vamp weapon.

I would not use SB in PvE. You cannot predict when 10-11 hits occures. While it will prevent more dmg than PS its too unpredictable.

Grammar · Dec 22, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Thanks for the insight folks, it's greatly appreciated.

I think we can close the book on the ZB issue.

As for the enchantments, I've decided to keep Prot Spirit on my bar, and I'm tinkering with the idea of clearing up an additional slot for SoA (as Ensign suggested).
Here's my build at the moment:
-Zealous Benediction {E}
-Gift of Health
-Reversal of Fortune
-Signet of Devotion
-Protective Spirit
-Dismiss Consition
-Remove Hex
-Rebirth

It's pretty much down to Remove Hex, RoF, and Rebirth as to which one I drop for SoA, with Remove Hex being the most likely option. I'm not really comfortable dropping RoF, and I've never run a PvE character without a rez. Even though my monk barely ever uses Rebirth, I don't want to be caught empty-handed in a wipe situation.

So what do you think? Would I be teh eV1L monk for not having a hex remover?

Burst Cancel · Dec 22, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I would keep the hex removal and drop either the res or Signet of Devotion. SoD was a lot better on Blight bars because a) you ran 14 divine and b) you really needed the emgt. SoD on a ZB is often either insufficient or unnecessary - the former because you only have 10 divine, the latter because ZB is conditionally free.

Ensign · Dec 22, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

I basically run that bar with Shield of Absorption over RoF and Holy Veil over Remove Hex. Holy Veil is just better than Remove Hex, I hate spending 2 seconds casting a spell (Signet of Devotion I cancel all the time), you can precast it when you know there will be problem hexes, and realistically I think you end up casting it more than Remove Hex anyway. Inspired Hex is the other one I've considered bringing, but without consistent energy from it I don't think it's worth it, you don't get enough from the slot.

RoF, if you need it, is awesome. It's almost always efficient and buys you time while you cast your big heal. I don't think it's nearly as big in PvE though, the damage is generally really easy to predict and I'm rarely in need of skills to throw between ZB and Gift. If I ran it, it would likely be at the expense of Gift. Gift is good, granted, but it isn't super sweet in a build featuring ZB and at a relatively lower spec you get for it because of that.

Shield of Absorption is nice, but it isn't the skill it is in PvP. There, it's this awesome anti-pressure skill that makes a focused target stop taking damage. If you have great aggro control, awesome, SoA is great, but if you don't it really underperforms. PvE is so much more of a Heal Party environment, where everyone is taking damage at once, and SoA isn't all that sweet if enemies aren't focusing fire. I can understand running without it, but it's going to need to be because of a really solid, cramped bar, like the one you listed.

Peace,
-CxE